(the Hebrew orginal is at https://www.zman.co.il/653352/). Only the interview itself is translated here, not the article in which it was embedded. This translation has not been reviewed by Rav Lichtenstein.
Two years after October 7, what is the state of the yeshiva and its students?
“These have been two long years, with many different emotions. On October 7 the entire yeshiva was mobilized: Students from abroad and young Israelis who had not yet undergone military training remained, but everyone who had served in the army was called up for reserve duty.
The yeshiva emptied out. Usually we have hundreds of people here, but from October 7 onward, the number of students from the third year and up who were present was in the single digits.
In one sense, it was inspiring. A core component of the hesder paradigm, and of the justification for shorter service, is that everyone serves in combat units unless the army disqualifies them for medical reasons, and that when there is a war everyone goes out at a moment’s notice. I am convinced that we fulfilled our mission and justified the logic of the dual track that combines book and sword.
We made a policy decision that the learning would continue to the extent possible via those who remained here. I told the students that they owed this to themselves, to Jewish history, to the Torah, and to God — that in times like these, the fire of Torah must continue to burn and be expressed with even greater intensity.
On another level, there was much pain. Another component of the hesder model is that the great majority of hesder students continue to serve in the reserves for many years. Therefore we had hundreds of students and alumni in combat units, and we endured heavy losses; six students and alumni were killed. All of those students were forced to contend not only with the pain and trauma they experienced, but also with the need to wrestle with the many moral and ethical dilemmas they encountered.
We are not mental-health professionals; the army provides such. but for many people, conversation, advice, and support from their spiritual mentors regarding these experiences is an important component of their emotional needs when they contend with the pain and trauma they experienced. When a person encounters tragedy, the search for an anchor and a connection to God and to Torah is a spiritual and emotional necessity. I had several such students.”
One of the central issues in public discourse today is the question of drafting the charedim. Given what you have described, it is hard not to pay attention to the different approach. What is your view on this topic?
“My primary role is that of educator, and an educator must focus on what he believes he can change. It is possible to change your own community, because you have a relationship with them and you share a common approach to the questions you are dealing with. If I were to preach to the charedim, that might be very satisfying personally, but it would move nothing.
I certainly have much criticism, but I think that the more they feel attacked, justly or not justly, the lower the odds that anything will change.
Now, if you ask me what I think the Torah wants of us, the fact that I am in hesder says everything, and it’s clear that I do not accept their attacks on the ability to learn Torah and serve in the army, or to observe mitzvot in the army.
This yeshiva is considered the representative of the Religious Zionist sector in Israeli society. In your opinion, is it correct to describe Religious Zionism in Israel as a single community?
“From a sociological perspective, in the broadest possible sense, Religious Zionism is a single community, but within Religious Zionism there are groups with very different ideological perspectives, and I think that It is important for us and for the broad public, the non-dati public, to recognize this.
We can think about those whom it is possible to title the founding fathers. The philosophical-metaphysical world of Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook differs sharply different from that of Rabbi Yosef Dov Soloveitchik. This difference ultimately permeates the manner in which you live your life and manner in which you approach reality.
Can you explain the difference between these worldviews?
“Rabbi Kook essentially sees the manifestation of God’s glory as a central point of religious life. For Rabbi Soloveitchik, the focus is the human-God relationship. This translates to many areas. [For Rabbi Kook], the State of Israel is a foundation of God’s glory in the world. Rabbi Soloveitchik sees [the state] as something important, but functional and utilitarian. One can use a metaphor: If we think about building a structure, for example a house, its main purpose is for you to live in it, to express your love to your spouse and your children. Now, the house strengthens the family, but without the house, the family remains. On the other hand, one can think of a different structure as an artistic and spiritual statement. That is approximately how Rabbi Kook sees the world, as G-d’s spiritual statement, in which the building itself has significance.
What in your opinion is the influence of the existence of a political party that calls itself “Religious Zionism”, just like the community itself?
“If one wants to turn Religious Zionism into a positive force, the central tool is education. The fundamental message needs to be transmitted via education., and is where we need to invest efforts and energy. Political parties are an expression of the manner in which you were educated and of your values.
With that, there is a false representation when they take the name of a movement that, as I said previously, included many ideological approaches, and use it for a specific political party . In my opinion this a robbery of the name.”
In recent years, the general public often hears about Religious Zionism in connection with the Hilltop Youth and the violence that accompanies that. What is your point of view?
“The violence that is taking place is terrible and wrong morally and ethically. One can debate where the line between self-defense and violence lies, but there is no doubt that much of what is happening is violence.
Ramban declares that in Sefer Bereishit, when Sarah our foremother oppressed Hagar, that all we have endured through the generations at the hands of Yishmael’s descendants, meaning the Arab world, is an effect of that. He wrote this in the thirteenth century, and it is no less relevant today.
“In religious terms, I think that this violence risks causing us, God forbid, to lose our claim and our right to hold onto the land.
With that, an important point that to my mind is not stressed sufficiently is that ten years ago people denied that there was a problem. Today many acknowledge that there is a problem, even those much closer ideologically [to the perpetrators]. But they tend to minimize its seriousness by presenting them as wild and troubled youth, and therefore the mainstream sees the violence as an educational problem and not as an ethical problem.
Permit me to cite Rambam again. Ramban says that Sarah sinned, but also Avraham did not prevent Sarah from doing this, and this is the deciding point. I have spoken with not a few people who say that there is no reason to speak with these [youth], they won’t listen. But I do believe that the extremes are influenced by where the mainstream stands.
If rabbis would condemn this from central platforms, it would have an influence. Or in other words, The perpetrators do these actions because to a large extent society demonstrated tolerance for them.
The extent to which the members of the community will be convinced that this is s chillul Hashem or simply regrettable behavior depends on what central Religious Zionist communities will hear on Friday night in their rabbis’ drashot. If they hear sharp denigration, this will generate a certain dynamic.
In my opinion, at this moment the failure is that the government, meaning the police and the army, are not preventing this. Contending with this failure and repairing it must be done by means of moving the mainstream.”
What are the challenges?
“We have a double challenge, perhaps a triple one.
“First: People relate to these people with leniency. Why? Partially because in the past thiry or forty years, an approach has developed that says “I wouldn’t do this, but if this advances our hold on the land, I will close my eyes”. I believe this is one thousand percent wrong. Never, ever, will you advance your claim on the land by means that are immoral or unethical.
The second problem is lack of information. When you speak with people and tell them that a portion of the Hilltop Youth have caused damage to Arabs, this seems very abstract. When you see the videos – but there is a lack of desire to spread them. I believe that if my neighbors, my friends, and my students would see them, the whole approach would change. I think that the great majority of them are ethical people, but I think it is obvious that often they are uninformed.
The third problem is that there is a specific ideology that seen no problem at all with this violence.
I think that Itamar Ben-Gvir and his entire group are violent people. It is hard to expect that the police will do anything when in other circumstances, those who are now in power would have been among those groups, with their mantle of power, the unrestrained use of power, and their lack of readiness to recognize the humanity of the other side. In place of this, it is upon us to recognize the humanity even of evildoers, even of our worst enemies.
In the past, you have expressed positions that are not popular in the community: for example, you supported the ending of the war for the sake of the hostage deal. Why in your opinion are your positions unusual?
“Part of the problem is the dynamic of the quarrel, becauseIn times of conflict everything becomes black and white, us against them. I think it doesn’t have to be that way: even in times of conflict we must recognize the humanity of the other side, and conflict does not permit us to do unethical things.
Additionally, there are two groups [within the political movement of Religious Zionism]. One is the disciples of Rabbi Kook. I believe that they are ethical and moral people, but their love for the Land of Israel blinds them with regard to certain problems.
The second group is Otzma Yehudit and the chasidim of the late extremist rabbi and politician Meir Kahana. I think that this is a distortion of Judaism. Judaism does not believe in violence and revenge. Judaism does not believe in power as a value. The readiness of various components of Religious Zionism to align with them on the basis of political calculations is a serious ethical mistake.
What does it mean to you and to this yeshiva to be here in Alon Shvut in Gush Etzion, with is itself a settlement?
“I believe that we have a right to all of the Land of Israel, because G-d gave it our father Avraham. But I recognize that our narrative clashes with the narrative of another strong group, which has different beliefs. When there are two completely different narratives, the only possible path is to reach a compromise, even if that implies paying a price.
The Talmud speaks about two people dispute over an object, to whom it belongs. There are two different solutions. One is to let them quarrel the other is to let them divide it.
What this essentially says is that you should prioritize peace over truth. The truth is that it doesn’t belong to both of them, but since we have not way of determining this, we choose to prioritize peace.
With that, the problem is that this has failed in practice, I say this with deep pain, because there is no partner for peace. For a not insignificant period I was sent to various dialogues with Palestinians, here and in Europe. There is no partner. This is my experience and the experience of others I am acquainted with.
What is required for Israel’s future?
“We must reduce the polarization in society. We need much more dialogue, much more readiness to compromise, internally as well. We are currently reading Sefer Bereishit, and the central message is that it is possible to overcome external threats, but internal divisions lead to exile.
An additional thing we need is accountability. Our society had undergone a powerful trauma, and absolutely think there is need for an independent commission of inquiry into October 7, and it must be a commission that can provide sufficient accountability and close the circle.
We are also obligated to contend with the ethical problems of what happened in Gaza. In my opinion, we need to acknowledge the ethical difficulties in Gaza and establish policies for the future. We need to acknowledge that there needs to be a political solution. Force will not solve all the problems. Both are necessary.